Pravachol symptoms and conditions

42 and taking Lipitor 40mg for 6 months. No other issues. 20 lbs overweight but also work out 4 times per week and feel to be in good shape. Lower back pain in middle of night that last until I get up out of bed and it started about a month after taking the Lipitor. If I get up, it goes away. Was so bad that I went and bought a sleep number bed thinking it was my old spring bed. Did not get better. Tried not taking the Lipitor for one night and the pain stopped. Took it again the next and it was back. Going to doctor to ask what is up?

wow- glad I found you guys! I'm female, 54, thin, healthy, have always exercised and watched my diet. cholesterol went up to 280 a couple of yrs ago- tried more diet/exercise but it only came down to 250, so since then have tried 4 low-dose (40 mg) statins (crestor, lipitor, zocor, and now pravastatin), all of which after 2-6 months made me feel like I was jumping out of my skin and caused chest pain and palpitations that stopped almost immediately when I discontinued them. Also, I've always fallen asleep quickly and now take an hour or more, and recently my fingers have started falling asleep/tingling. I'm stopping the pravastatin today! Maybe 250 isn't so bad, if this is the alternative. Does anyone have any remedies to suggest besides low fat/low sugar diet? I just read that we should avoid reduced-fat milks (I drink 1%) because they contain oxydized cholesterol, which irritates the artery wall.

June 27/09
I am 65 yrs , very active. Play hockey, baseball, slopitch, and jog.
Started on Lipitor 10gm about 5 years ago. About 6 months later increased to 20gm. about 1 years later increased to 40 gm. Did not really notice any side effects. During that time cholesterol dropped from approx in Aug2005 to 8.01: ; Jan06 to 6.37:; Apr06 to 5.3 ; May09 @ 4.2. No problems noticed while on 40s for about 2 years.
June09 doctor increased to 80 gm !? Started to notice muscle cramps and pain . Also started to notice some stomach upsets.Thought I had strained a hamstring muscle from hard running acceleration but not sure now after reading some of the comments. Three days ago , although I always stretch for 1/2 to 3/4 an hour before every baseball which I play 4 times a week, I had very severe muscle cramps suddenly above my calf muscle just below the knee as I started to run to 1st base. I played the rest of the game but in pain and could not run hard . Could not sprint on my toes as I always did , so had to run about half speed but flat footed on the bases but painful,as we had only 9 players. Had hot shower Thursday night after game, massaged calf area with Wintercrest ointment. Got up this morning Friday , muscle sore but can walk on my toes. Tonight @ midnight slight soreness but most of the pain gone. I was thinking that I might have strained a calf muscle playing baseball but noway! I think it has to do with the doubling of the Lipitor from 40 to 80!!!! Will cut back back to 40 gm on my own till I see the doctor.
Will go to see my Doctor ASAP!!!

simvastatin causes nightmares that's why your sweating so bad. I have never had nightmares since I was a kid. I started taking simvastatin (zocor) and the first night I sweated and woke up with a racing heart. I didn't know why. The 2nd night I woke up and thought someone was in my room I saw someone in the dark run across the room. I jumped up jammed my hand into my draw pulling my hand gun out. Now that Im fully awake I don't see anything. I'm so wound up I can't sleep the rest of the night. The next day today I do a google search about nightmares and boom found a new study that Statin's cause nightmares because it penitrates into the brain. Its made out of a fungus. Anyway i'm done with statin's My ratio is 3.63 so not too bad but I think diet and exercise with fish oil will do it. If you have to be on this stuff there are 2 that don't get into the brain. Check it out Pravachol and Crestor.

My hair kept coming out by the handfuls. I've lost at least 8 inches since I started simvastatin! I mentioned this to the endocrinologist and he said he didn't know, but he prescribed it. I am furious, hair is a woman's crowning glory.

I have extreme thumb spasms, often both thumbs at the same time. i had an episode a few weeks ago of a severe pain in my hip running down my leg. I was in bed all weekend as a result and needed a cortisone shot to help relieve the pain. I forgot a name right after they tell me and I am only 50 years old. I lose my balance and sometimes almost fall and have vertigo every now and then. I wonder if all these symptoms are from lipitor. I have been on it for at least 3 years.

Over 6 years ago, the following Petition was submitted to the FDA, I would encourage every patient being treated with statins to read it and bring it to the immediate attention of their physician:

CITIZEN PETITION TO CHANGE THE LABELING FOR
ALL STATIN DRUGS (MEVACOR, LESCOL, PRAVACHOL, ZOCOR, LIPITOR, AND ADVICOR) RECOMMENDING USE OF
100-200mg PER DAY OF SUPPLEMENTAL CO-ENZYME Q10 TO REDUCE THE RISK OF STATIN-INDUCED MYOPATHIES (INCLUDING
CARDIOMYOPATHY AND CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE). http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/dailys/02/May02/052902/02p-0244-cp00001-01-vol1.pdf
May 24, 2002
Petitioner:
Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, M.D.

This Petition is based in part on the clinical findings of Dr Peter H. Langsjoen, MD, FAAC,

Over 6 years ago, the following Petition was submitted to the FDA, I would encourage every patient being treated with statins to read it and bring it to the immediate attention of their physician:

CITIZEN PETITION TO CHANGE THE LABELING FOR
ALL STATIN DRUGS (MEVACOR, LESCOL, PRAVACHOL, ZOCOR, LIPITOR, AND ADVICOR) RECOMMENDING USE OF
100-200mg PER DAY OF SUPPLEMENTAL CO-ENZYME Q10 TO REDUCE THE RISK OF STATIN-INDUCED MYOPATHIES (INCLUDING
CARDIOMYOPATHY AND CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE). http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/dailys/02/May02/052902/02p-0244-cp00001-01-vol1.pdf
May 24, 2002
Petitioner:
Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, M.D.

This Petition is based in part on the clinical findings and safety concerns of Dr Peter H. Langsjoen, MD, FAAC

Statins kill people - lots of people - and they wound many, many more. All patients taking statins become depleted in Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), eventually - those patients who start with a relatively low CoQ10 levels (the elderly and patients with heart failure) begin to manifest signs/symptoms of CoQ10 deficiency relatively rapidly - in 6 to 12 months. Younger, healthier people who's only "illness" is the non-illness "hypercholesterolemia" can tolerate statins for several years before getting into trouble with fatigue, muscle weakness and soreness (usually with normal muscle enzyme CPK tests) and most ominously - heart failure. In my practice of 17 years in Tyler, Texas, I have seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin usage, "statin cardiomyopathy". Over the past five years, statins have become more potent, are being prescribed in higher doses, and are being used with reckless abandon in the elderly and in patients with "normal" cholesterol levels. We are in the midst of a CHF epidemic in the US with a dramatic increase over the past decade. Are we causing this epidemic through our zealous use of statins? In large part I think the answer is yes. We are now in a position to witness the unfolding of the greatest medical tragedy of all time - never before in history has the medical establishment knowingly (Merck & Co., Inc. has two 1990 patents combining CoQ10 with statins to prevent CoQ10 depletion and attendant side effects) created a life threatening nutrient deficiency in millions of otherwise healthy people, only to then sit back with arrogance and horrific irresponsibility and watch to see what happens - as I see two to three new statin cardiomyopathies per week in my practice, I cannot help but view my once great profession with a mixture of sorrow and contempt.

Over 6 years ago, the following Petition was submitted to the FDA, I would encourage every patient being treated with statins to read it and bring it to the immediate attention of their physician:

CITIZEN PETITION TO CHANGE THE LABELING FOR
ALL STATIN DRUGS (MEVACOR, LESCOL, PRAVACHOL, ZOCOR, LIPITOR, AND ADVICOR) RECOMMENDING USE OF
100-200mg PER DAY OF SUPPLEMENTAL CO-ENZYME Q10 TO REDUCE THE RISK OF STATIN-INDUCED MYOPATHIES (INCLUDING
CARDIOMYOPATHY AND CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE). http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/dailys/02/May02/052902/02p-0244-cp00001-01-vol1.pdf
May 24, 2002
Petitioner:
Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, M.D.

This Petition is based in part on the clinical findings of Dr Peter H. Langsjoen, MD, which he also reported to the FDA:

Statins kill people - lots of people - and they wound many, many more. All patients taking statins become depleted in Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), eventually - those patients who start with a relatively low CoQ10 levels (the elderly and patients with heart failure) begin to manifest signs/symptoms of CoQ10 deficiency relatively rapidly - in 6 to 12 months. Younger, healthier people who's only "illness" is the non-illness "hypercholesterolemia" can tolerate statins for several years before getting into trouble with fatigue, muscle weakness and soreness (usually with normal muscle enzyme CPK tests) and most ominously - heart failure. In my practice of 17 years in Tyler, Texas, I have seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin usage, "statin cardiomyopathy". Over the past five years, statins have become more potent, are being prescribed in higher doses, and are being used with reckless abandon in the elderly and in patients with "normal" cholesterol levels. We are in the midst of a CHF epidemic in the US with a dramatic increase over the past decade. Are we causing this epidemic through our zealous use of statins? In large part I think the answer is yes. We are now in a position to witness the unfolding of the greatest medical tragedy of all time - never before in history has the medical establishment knowingly (Merck & Co., Inc. has two 1990 patents combining CoQ10 with statins to prevent CoQ10 depletion and attendant side effects) created a life threatening nutrient deficiency in millions of otherwise healthy people, only to then sit back with arrogance and horrific irresponsibility and watch to see what happens - as I see two to three new statin cardiomyopathies per week in my practice, I cannot help but view my once great profession with a mixture of sorrow and contempt.

Over 6 years ago, the following Petition was submitted to the FDA. I would encourage every patient being treated with statins to read it and bring it to the immediate attention of their physician:

CITIZEN PETITION TO CHANGE THE LABELING FOR
ALL STATIN DRUGS (MEVACOR, LESCOL, PRAVACHOL, ZOCOR,LIPITOR, AND ADVICOR) RECOMMENDING USE OF 100-200mg PER DAY OF SUPPLEMENTAL CO-ENZYME Q10 TO REDUCE THE RISK OF STATIN-INDUCED MYOPATHIES (INCLUDING
CARDIOMYOPATHY AND CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE). http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/dailys/02/May02/052902/02p-0244-cp00001-01-vol1.pdf
May 24, 2002
Petitioner:
Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, M.D.

This Petition is based on the clinical findings of Dr Peter H. Langsjoen, MD, who also reported it to the FDA as follows:

Statins kill people - lots of people - and they wound many, many more. All patients taking statins become depleted in Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), eventually - those patients who start with a relatively low CoQ10 levels (the elderly and patients with heart failure) begin to manifest signs/symptoms of CoQ10 deficiency relatively rapidly - in 6 to 12 months. Younger, healthier people who's only "illness" is the non-illness "hypercholesterolemia" can tolerate statins for several years before getting into trouble with fatigue, muscle weakness and soreness (usually with normal muscle enzyme CPK tests) and most ominously - heart failure. In my practice of 17 years in Tyler, Texas, I have seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin usage, "statin cardiomyopathy". Over the past five years, statins have become more potent, are being prescribed in higher doses, and are being used with reckless abandon in the elderly and in patients with "normal" cholesterol levels. We are in the midst of a CHF epidemic in the US with a dramatic increase over the past decade. Are we causing this epidemic through our zealous use of statins? In large part I think the answer is yes. We are now in a position to witness the unfolding of the greatest medical tragedy of all time - never before in history has the medical establishment knowingly (Merck & Co., Inc. has two 1990 patents combining CoQ10 with statins to prevent CoQ10 depletion and attendant side effects) created a life threatening nutrient deficiency in millions of otherwise healthy people, only to then sit back with arrogance and horrific irresponsibility and watch to see what happens - as I see two to three new statin cardiomyopathies per week in my practice, I cannot help but view my once great profession with a mixture of sorrow and contempt.

Over 6 years ago, the following Petition was submitted to the FDA. I would encourage every patient being treated with statins to read it and bring it to the immediate attention of their physician:

CITIZEN PETITION TO CHANGE THE LABELING FOR
ALL STATIN DRUGS (MEVACOR, LESCOL, PRAVACHOL, ZOCOR, LIPITOR, AND ADVICOR) RECOMMENDING USE OF
100-200mg PER DAY OF SUPPLEMENTAL CO-ENZYME Q10 TO REDUCE THE RISK OF STATIN-INDUCED MYOPATHIES (INCLUDING
CARDIOMYOPATHY AND CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE). http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/dailys/02/May02/052902/02p-0244-cp00001-01-vol1.pdf
May 24, 2002
Petitioner:
Dr. Julian M. Whitaker, M.D.

This Petition is based on the clinical findings of Dr Peter H. Langsjoen, MD, who also reported it to the FDA as follows:

Statins kill people - lots of people - and they wound many, many more. All patients taking statins become depleted in Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10), eventually - those patients who start with a relatively low CoQ10 levels (the elderly and patients with heart failure) begin to manifest signs/symptoms of CoQ10 deficiency relatively rapidly - in 6 to 12 months. Younger, healthier people who's only "illness" is the non-illness "hypercholesterolemia" can tolerate statins for several years before getting into trouble with fatigue, muscle weakness and soreness (usually with normal muscle enzyme CPK tests) and most ominously - heart failure. In my practice of 17 years in Tyler, Texas, I have seen a frightening increase in heart failure secondary to statin usage, "statin cardiomyopathy". Over the past five years, statins have become more potent, are being prescribed in higher doses, and are being used with reckless abandon in the elderly and in patients with "normal" cholesterol levels. We are in the midst of a CHF epidemic in the US with a dramatic increase over the past decade. Are we causing this epidemic through our zealous use of statins? In large part I think the answer is yes. We are now in a position to witness the unfolding of the greatest medical tragedy of all time - never before in history has the medical establishment knowingly (Merck & Co., Inc. has two 1990 patents combining CoQ10 with statins to prevent CoQ10 depletion and attendant side effects) created a life threatening nutrient deficiency in millions of otherwise healthy people, only to then sit back with arrogance and horrific irresponsibility and watch to see what happens - as I see two to three new statin cardiomyopathies per week in my practice, I cannot help but view my once great profession with a mixture of sorrow and contempt.

As MANY of you have posted, "I thought I was just getting 'old." Now I know it's the statins. I thought I was doing the right thing because I have family history of cholesterol problems. I was first on pravachol, then lipitor for a few years, now Vytorin - which dropped my numbers to the lowest ever - 190.

HOWEVER - I have never felt worse. I have all the 'symptoms' described in this blog. Reclusive, depressed, extreme shoulder/neck stiffness and pain. Low back, and hip joint pain (severe). I can't even workout because I don't have the stamina to go through my routine. LOSS OF MEMORY!! This is severe. I use to be able to memorize hundreds of numbers or addresses and now can't remember a number that I looked at 2 seconds ago! This is insane! They need to remove this drug from the market. I'm done with statins.

After taking 10 mg of Crestor for a short time, i experienced shortness of breath and was very tired. This continued even thou the doctor said it was not a problem. I finally got in to see him and they had me immediately quit the drug and I was sent for a echo/stress test. My heart rate had dropped so low and my breathing so labored, that I was considering suicide, there was no way I was going to go on living if all that I could do was to wake up and get dressed and be so tired , that I was unable to function at all.

Hope this helps someone:

Male 53, 5' 10", 180 lbs, slim
Occupation: Engineer/small biz owner and operator
Total cholesterol now is 4.53 (175), LDL 2.30 (89), HDL 1.43 (55), TriG 1.73 (66)

Presently on 20 mG Lipitor for last 2 months.
40 mG Lipitor for previous 8 months because lipid levels deemed too high.
20 mG Lipitor for 3 years before that.
20 mG Pravachol for 2 years before that.

SIDE EFFECTS I BELIEVE ARE DUE TO STATINS:

1) Difficulty learning/performing new tasks. I can read a technical article and forget most content almost immediately. I can read a book and forget what it is mostly about...difficulty forming new memory.
2) Difficulty communicating. I often stop a conversation in mid-sentence because I have completely lost my train of thought. I often cannot form difficult technical words properly.
3) Several times over the last year I have suddenly forgotten where I was going or where the location was...this was in normally familiar territory.
4) For the past year, I have often felt like I have a low grade flu.
5) I have decreased statin dose and improved my diet and recently significantly increased exercise. I am noticing some exercise intolerance and muscle stiffness that cannot be only due to exercise.
6) Extremely vivid dreams a few times a month (embarrassingly, howling in my sleep according to family members). This was the main reason for reducing dose back to 20 mG.

Most side effects were worst at higher doses of 40 mG. There has been some improvement since dropping back to 20 mG Lipitor. Symptoms first noticed to some degree at 20 mG Pravachol...got worse when switched to more potent Lipitor at 20 mG. Initially, I thought it was age. Both my doctor and specialist do not believe statins are related to any problems I've experienced and are convinced that any risks are outweighed by the benefits. I would like to see them competently run their practice under the conditions I've had to try and operate my biz.

I started taking fish body oil two weeks ago and have noticed a significant cognitive improvement. This may be partly due to reduced statin dose, however, there is lots of evidence online as to why fish oil will help some statin users. I started 50 mG CoQ10 a couple of days ago. My goal is to absolutely minimize statin dose or to eliminate it all together.

I am educated, intelligent and analytical. I am not a doctor. That said, no one can, and ever will again, tell me that the degradation in mental function I've experienced is not related to the statin drugs I've been prescribed.

If you look online, you can find a growing and disturbing number of statin induced side effects reported. This is especially true considering what was considered acceptable LDL a couple of years ago is now too high...doctors are prescribing statins in higher and higher doses.

THESE ARE DANGEROUS DRUGS.

I hope this helps someone. Recognize the symptoms and make your physician take appropriate action.

I too was taking LIPITOR. After 3 months I became short of breath. At first I put it down to the weight that I had regained.I had lost 18kg.the year before. I had muscle pain, nausea, headaches.The Lipitor reduced the LDL alright,but the shortness of breath became worse and worse. If I was sitting on a chair and dropped a piece of paper on the floor I would be completely out of breath from bending over and picking it up! If I was walking for more than a few minutes I would be out of breath and had to stop. I quickly regained my breath; but the moment I started to walk again I would become breathless again!! My heart specialist decide to do an angiogram, that was o.k. He told me it was my weight that made me short of breath, I disagreed with him. My G.P. did not know what caused it either. I had had problems with Pravachol, severe muscles stiffness and pain. I could not straighten a bend leg or bend a straight leg.It was only after I studied the enclosed leaflet in the box of Lipitor that I noticed the RARE BUT SERIOUS SIDE EFFECT: Shortness of breath, if you suffer from this stop straight away and see your Dr. it said. It turned out that the ALVEOLI are affected. I had a lung function test done which showed my lung capacity was down by 20%.After cortisone treatment it has improved a bit but it is still 10% down and it effects me every day. I tire quickly and get out of breath walking uphill or against the wind.If there is a class action going let me know please! I am so fed up . I am only 63 but feel like an old woman.I will not take anymore cholesterol lowering medication; I rather live 5 years less, if that is the consequence.

I took Toprol for almost 2 years then in Aug generic came out Metoprolol and I switched over. I was taking 25mg. After a few weeks, I noticed numbness in my index finger and middle finger. Then it happened in other hand. Doc said I had tendinitis in one hand and slept wrong on the other...I was also depressed and having panic attacks. From the onset of taking Toprol my sleep was disturbed,but thought it was age related. Once I went on Metoprolol insomnia set in. Then my feet went cold and numb and my arms were so heavy and tingly and my joints hurt. My right shin hurt to touch as well. Vision was cloudy and had trouble adjusting to light changes. Finally it dawned on my that the changes occurred about the time I started the generic. I went back to doc and he pretty much told me I was crazy, prescribed Xanax and a session with a psychiatrist! He switched me back to Toprol and I felt no better then he switched me to
Atenolol with same result. By this time, my chest was on fire and I had extreme difficultly breathing. Called doc and he told me to stop cold turkey. I did and thought I was going to die one day. Throat closed up blood pressure soared. He stopped me on Nov 11 or 12th. I have been on nothing. Blood pressure is not leveled. When I first sit down it is like 140/93. If I wait a few minutes it goes down to 120/80 or a little lower. I was expecting to feel a lot better by this point in the game. I still have numbness in my pinky and ring finger and in my toes. If I take Advil it lessens to where it is not so bothersome. Anyone know how long this stuff takes to get out of your system? I am shopping for a new doc since mine know things I am a hypo. I am a 39 yr old female with no other health issues. Was originally put on for stress related palps.

My doctor started me on Mevacor a few months ago at 40 mg - I could hardly stand up to walk - my back was killing me! Then she put meon 5 mg of Zocor - okay for the first few weeks, and my cholestorol went down so she told me to double it to 10 mg - then the leg cramps started. I stopped taking if for a few weeks and restarted at 5 mgs (again) last week - now my legs are aching and my ankles are swollen big time. Also noticing fatique and some blues/depression. I told my doctor today that I am not taking it anymore! Not asking her, TELLING her.

I took Lipitor for 2 weeks. Pravachol for the 2 weeks prior. Pravachol made my lower legs swell daily so I called my Dr. She gave me samples of Lipitor. I take only .5 mg a day. Each day that I am on my feet often or do yard work my lower legs swell. I have been off Lipitor 3 days no problem. I go to Dr. tomorrow????

I have severe numbness and tingling in fingers to the point of problems sleeping due to the discomfort. Also have pain and popping in both thumbs only. I heard from a friend that her brother had same symptoms with Pravachol, which is what I take. She said his doctor diagnosed osteoarthritis and thought it might be connected to Pravachol use. Anyone else know any connection or have similar symptom?

I have been on nuvaring for over a year and have all sorts of issues that I never even considered to be linked to the NR. I suffer from bipolar disorder, severe anxiety and depression and all my symptoms have increased while on the NR. I have terrible headaches on a daily basis and have had alot of stomach problems. Nausea, cramps, vomiting etc but I just thought I was sick. I have also had issues with weight gain and I have absolutely zero sex drive. This has been really hard on my partner and I's relationship and is extremely frustrating. We've been together 3yrs this fall and this is really hurting us both.(I'm 20yrs old) We have been thinking my headaches were caused by grinding my teeth. I'm currently on a number of medications including lamictal, ambien CR, adderall XR, allegra. I'm always exhausted and ill tempered and just had several blood tests to try and determine what could be causing my constant exhaustion but nothing was irregular. I have an appt with my gynecologist tomorrow and I'm going to talk to her about other options but because all BC forms have about the same degree, if not worse, side effects I might stop the BC all together.

It really sucks that I am having so many issues from NR because it is by far the easiest BC I have ever used. I always forgot the pill and the patch hurt like BLEEP and always fell off.

bad muscle pain, knee pain, hair falling out, dry skin, dry eyes, dry mucus membraines, finger nails breaking, must I go on>>>>>>>>>>I stopped taking it>>>>>>>> and now my doctor wants to put me on pravachol. I really don't want to be on any statins. I am afraid of them.

Has anybody every heard of memory loss while taking Welchol.

Started on Vytorin (Zocor 20 mg/Zetia 10mg) on 12-23-04. I had previously been on 40 mg of Pravochol with 10 mg of Zetia with little side effects. However after 6 months on Vytorin my sex drive has diminished and my left ankle swells and aches after my daily 30 minute jog (have been jogging for over 25 year without any ankle problems). 3 days ago I began splitting my Vytorin 10/20 pill and have noticed the ankle pain has subsided greatly. The ankle pain has persisted for the last 6 months while on the Vytorin. My cholesterol has plummeted to 133 (which I personally think is too low). I am planning to have my doctor put me back on a lower dose (20mg) of Pravachol and Zetia as before. Anyone esle have this problem with Vytorin?

This is lipitor AND pravochol use side effect....My feet hurt a lot and my 2nd toes on each foot (from big toe) is now headed in the opposite direction, leans TOWARD my big toe, a space then my next three toes....I have never had pretty toes but now!!!!The last time I had real bad swelling AND pain in one of my feet was in Jan 2003, went to Doctor, he said it was arthritis ( I was 59 at the time), my foot stayed swollen and painful UNTIL abt. 2 weeks after I stopped taking pravachol!!!!! I have not had any lingering pain or swelling since I have come off these drugs...